Life support is heavy

[bellinghman]

Inspired by a post by major_clanger, it's interesting to note fuel consumption for crossing Canada.

On the way out, The Canadian train from Toronto to Vancouver: 72,000 litres of diesel.
On the way back, WestJet 737-700 from Vancouver to Montreal (which is further): 13,000 litres of jet fuel.

The 737 carries 140 passengers.
I'm under the impression that The Canadian carries about 250 passengers in total, though I can't actually find figures.

Conclusion: per passenger mile, extreme long distance trains can end up burning more fuel than planes, due to the train carrying along bunk beds, showers, kitchens, etc., etc.

Edit: crazyscot pointed out some corrections, with most importantly the plane drinking about half what I'd assumed.

Comments

[damerell.livejournal.com]

A Class 43 uses about 0.8 litres per 100 seat-km. It is not transporting kitchens, but on the other hand it would take about 25 hours to travel from Vancouver to Toronto rather than the four days used by _The Canadian_, and work done to overcome air resistance varies with the square of speed.

It seems rather unlikely that _The Canadian_ uses eight times as much fuel as an ordinary HST, itself an aging and much faster design. Where's that figure of 72,000 litres come from?

But, frankly, if you're going to fly to Canada and back and travel across Canada and back, why fret over slight reductions in the damage done? If we carry on like that we're doomed anyway, whether you travel across Canada by air, train, car, or pogo-stick.

[bellinghman.livejournal.com]

The fuel consumption comes from the two locos (each quite heavy itself, of course) each having a 6000 litre tank, and 6 fuelling stops.

There is a point that could be raised about how empty those tanks are when refilling is required, but if it could do it on 4 stops, say, then why refill 6 times?

I do think it's an example of the worst possible performance for a train. Why it appears quite that thirsty, I can't say, though I suspect the locos are optimised for pulling power rather than speed: some of the freight trains coming the other way were a mile long, with only a pair of locos pulling, so it may be that the whole train was vastly overgeared.

(For speed, it's limited to 70 mph top speed.)

[timill]

http://www.oetr.on.ca/oetr/uploads%5CNIC%5C201%5C2009A%5C201_2009A_supprt4.pdf has some fuel consumption figures for VIA Rail's F40PHs. In particular, Table 5 has a consumption figure of 208.8 litres/hour, which would suggest 40,000 litres for 2 locos for 100 hours.

OTOH, this appears to be based (Table 12) on a duty cycle of (approx) 50% idle, 20% Notch 1 (min non-idle), 20% Notch 8 (max) and 10% other powers, and probably reflects time stabled between trips as well as time on the road with a train.

Indeed, FIgure 1 suggests about 500litres/hour for a loco producing 3000HP (the F40PH's rated power).

So I'd guess that 50-60,000 litres would be about right.

[bellinghman.livejournal.com]

To support passenger service, the F40PH is equipped with a secondary electrical generator known as the head end generator. The HEP unit generates three-phase AC power at 480 v AC 750 A or about 500 kW to provide power to the cars for lighting, heating, and air conditioning. Because head end power must be delivered to the rest of the trainset at a constant frequency, the prime mover in these locomotives must turn at a constant high speed (900 rpm) while delivering head end power (even if the locomotive is standing still). Power to the traction motors is controlled by varying the field excitation of the main (traction) generator.

So the engine basically runs full speed all the time, unless the whole train is turned off. That's not going to help efficientcy at all.

[timill]

Full speed, but not full load.

[bellinghman.livejournal.com]

Yes. Still, there's going to be all that friction internal to the engine.

Hmm, I wonder if the use of twin engines means that the one of the two doesn't have to do this.

[vatine]

I suspect they're running on one engine at a time under "no load". The one larger ship (a cruise ferry on the Stockholm-Helsinki route) that I've looked inside more closely (A Silja Line ship, can't remember the exact ship, though) had four massively huge 12 cylinder diesels, running between 1 and 4 constantly, at the peak-efficiency RPM, driving one or two generators through gearboxes.

As I understand it, they run on a single engine while docked, one engine on each generator while at sea, but having the option of pulling more power if they need it. They also have accumulator banks for produced, but not used, electricity.

[damerell.livejournal.com]

Does the train stop to take on other supplies, change staff, etc? Perhaps it is just routine to top off the tanks when the train is doing so.

For one thing, again, a class 43's fuel tank is 4,500 litres (again, in each of two locomotives). If I were designing a locomotive with eight times the fuel consumption, I'd probably put in a fuel tank more than 4/3 as big, especially if I were expecting it to run on the very long distances in very empty areas in Western Canada.

Wikipedia conveniently has a picture of two EMD F40PHs pulling The Canadian in 2005, and tells me that they are diesel-electric locomotives intended for passenger use, so I don't think the theory that they are using vastly overspecified goods locos holds water. Their Wikipedia page also contains no indication that they are grossly inefficient.

[bellinghman.livejournal.com]

We were told that the drivers work 8 hour shifts, and are changed for a new set after that shift. At such times, the train stops to let them off. (The drivers then wait for the next train to come through (2 days later) before then doing their next shift.)

So there are 10 stops for driver changes. All other crew are based out of Winnipeg, with staff working non-stop out to Vancouver and back, or to Toronto and back, and living on the train. Any particular employee works one side or the other of the country, on a 6 days on, 8 days off shift pattern.

I do wonder whether the fact the carriages are 1955 vintage stainless steel makes them much heavier than modern ones would be. The outside surfaces did feel pretty damn solid, with no sign of any denting or distorion after half a century's use.

[bellinghwoman.livejournal.com]

Where's that figure of 72,000 litres come from?

We called in at the railway museum in Winnepeg during our stopover, and were shown a film about the trains. The train is pulled by 2 diesel engines, the tanks on each engine hold 6000 litres and the tanks are filled 6 times to make the journey. (6,000+6,000)x6=72,000

[knell.livejournal.com]

I think the repeated assumption that the tanks are empty when fuelled here is basically flawed and sounds more like the kind of claim Michael O'Leary would make... *cough*

Firstly, the tanks won't be empty at each refuelling stop. In fact, I'd guess they'll be half full or more, for the obvious reason that if for some reason there are supply problems and fuel is unavailable at one point, you want to be able to have enough to get to the next fuelling point. You also want a hefty surplus, as in places like Canada there are real risks of being stuck in the middle of nowhere courtesy of unexpectedly heavy snowfall or mechanical breakdown, and you'll want to keep the train supply available for anything up to several days because in the sort of climate Canada has people could freeze to death otherwise.

I'd suspect that while it's highly unlikely they could cross the continent on a single tank of fuel, it's simply good practice to top off the tanks when the opportunity arises. Also, the weight of a full tank of fuel is irrelevant compared to the weight of the train as a while (hell, in some cases the heavier the loco the better) - unlike aircraft, where a significant amount of fuel is burned simply carrying the contents of the fuel tanks around. The actual fuel consumption for the trip I have no idea of, but I'd be willing to bet it's a hell of a lot less than 72000l.

[bellinghman.livejournal.com]

You're certainly right that, compared to a 70 tonne take-off weight 737-700 carrying 20 tonnes of fuel, a 600 (?) tonne train carrying 10 tonnes of fuel is insignificant.

The claim by the railway museum is that the tanks are 'refilled'. Not 'topped off', but 'refilled'. Given the traffic on the route, I don't think you're going to find anywhere that is that far from a refuelling place: the train has stops listed at roughly 100 km intervals, even if the majority aren't used. So your hypothesis that it's got to worry about running out of fuel seems a bit of a stretch to me.

(Unlike the case of the Gimli Glider, a train running out of fuel has a rather unexciting failure mode.)

So, while I'd agree that the tanks won't be empty when the refueling points are arrived at, I think timill's guess of an actual consumption of 40 kl is probably about right.

It is, for a train, hideously inefficient. The carriages are 1950s vintage, built like tanks. (Which may be why it requires two locos to pull them, when the mile-long freights we were passing only ever got up to three.) The locos are somewhat newer, but still not exactly new. The whole setup dates to an era when fuel was dirt cheap. And the number of passengers for that number of coaches is miniscule. All in all, if there's a less fuel-efficient train running anywhere in the world, I'd love to know where.

(I stress 'passengers' there - because there's the train crew being carried too, and that's another 21 people.)

[damerell.livejournal.com]

Two locomotives is probably just a redundancy measure. The power output of those locomotives is low compared to US goods locomotives - 2.2 MW where an EMD SD90MAC diesel goods locomotive produces 4.6 MW. The SD90MAC will make 80mph, too; there's no engineering reason why one locomotive could provide the speed and power needed for the service.

Note that (for example) a British Class 43 equally well represents routine use of two locomotives for passenger services.

[damerell.livejournal.com]

As you'll see from comments on this and the next entry, I didn't believe that either.

I've now had a reply from the Secretary of the Winnipeg Railway Museum. "The solution to the conundrum is that the engines do not FILL UP - i.e., take on 6,000l at each stop - but rather TOP UP. On the much shorter trip from Winnipeg to Churchill they fuel up four times."

As you and I suspected. He says that he does not know the actual total fuel consumption or the full pax load, but he is finding out.